Join Dr Alan Watkins and Peter Dawson as they discuss COVID-19 and the five waves that will hit every country on the planet. More importantly, they also discuss the importance of compassion and community and what an appropriate organisational response should be.
CC Podcast Alan Watkins and Peter Dawson on COVID-19
Alan:Welcome to the Complete Curiosity Podcast. In this episode, I'm joined by my colleague, Peter Dawson, who's one of our practitioners. But prior to that, he was a FTSE250 CEO. So, he has a deep understanding of the commercial world and its myriad of challenges. Today we'll be talking about something that everyone's become insatiably curious about, and has a thousand questions about, and that is Corona virus COVID-19. Since this is the first time that most people had to deal with a pandemic, most people are struggling to know how to respond to this threat, to our safety. At this point, the threats, largely medical, immunological, and psychological.
Fortunately, I've got degrees in all three subjects, so I feel somewhat qualified to offer some insights that build on the article I posted on LinkedIn a couple of days ago that people said was helpful. So, Peter, how are you? Any symptoms yet?
Peter:Hi, Alan. No, I'm good. Thankfully. but obviously, we need to remain vigilant as to what's going on and how we're actually feeling so that we can respond appropriately.
Alan:And it just seems to be escalating and it's creating such uncertainty. So, how have you been handling, the changeability and the uncertainty of it all.
Peter:Well, one of the ways that we look at it as you know, is really making sure that we're paying attention to all the dimensions of what's actually taking place in situations, such as these.
So, lots of people are focused on what it is they need to do, the activities that they need to, get into, their to do list of work is huge, and they're starting to prepare at home. But we also need to pay attention to other dimensions. And that is what's actually going on inside of us and how we're feeling and how we're being and how clearly, we're thinking.
But also, we need to pay attention to how we relate to other people. And. How our relationships are working, not just with the people that we work with, but also at home. And it's bringing into stark view how we relate to other people in our community and indeed how we relate to other nations. So, we bring this together, as, you know, in a particular model which we described as the "I", "WE", and the "IT". So, the, "IT" is the doing and the "WE" is the relating and the "I" is the being, but unfortunately most of us are addicted to the "IT", the doing, and we become human doings rather than human beings. So, it's really a question of actually; what we advise our clients to do and the people that we work with when we're working with leaders and teams, is to really focus on what's going on inside of us first. Making sure that we are thinking clearly and making sure that we're in control of how we feel, so that we can actually make the best decisions about what it is we're going to do.
Alan:Right. I mean, I think it's really fascinating. it's an incredible, challenge to humanity, essentially. but also, one of the unintended consequences of this sort of global threat. Is, we may end up learning an awful lot about who we are as human beings individually and collectively, and our ability to respond as a planet.
So, we'll get into that a little bit later. All of the, consequences, you know, the immediate and the longer-term consequences. But just to pick up your point, about, all human problems have three dimensions. They have, an objective, visible, dimension, which is what are we going to do about all of this, you know, practical, real world, things that need to happen.
They also threaten how we feel about ourselves, each other. and, you know, COVID-19 threatens and relationships, as you say. But why is it, do you think that people are, defaulting predominantly to, just working on stuff they need to do. Why do people just get so obsessed by that bit and ignore the "I" and the, "WE"?
Peter:I think Alan, it's mostly because.
That is how we're conditioned to respond. We don't really pay attention to actually what we're thinking about, how we're actually feeling. We've been conditioned to actually just focus on what are we going to do? What are the actions we're going to take, what's on my to do list? Those are the things, as you say, that we can see, we can touch.
They're the sort of concrete, rational, objective things that we can actually pay attention to. And one of the things, obviously, in terms of how we respond as humans, is when we're in a state of threat, our ability to think clearly gets impaired and therefore we get, down to our default functions, which is really paying attention to what it is, we are going to do in this moment now. Particularly when the threat is, as severe as it is at the moment, or seem to be as severe as it is at the moment.
Alan:Right. So, do you think the first start point then is, to avoid the sort of frontal, lobotomy that most human beings get as a sort of natural consequence of being threatened by anything. Is people Lobotomize themselves, start buying 400 packets of toilet paper and, only thinking about themselves, you know?
Whereas actually that's. Ultimately counterproductive because if everybody took that response, there would literally be nothing in the supermarket. So, is the first step, when asked the question, what do we do? Is the first step, not always manage your own emotions, get your own house in order. Is that the first step for us all?
Peter:Absolutely. Completely agree that that is the first step. And then as I say, that's what we advise our leaders and our clients to approach. Or, how to approach it. Because if you haven't got clarity about your own thoughts, your own emotions, then you're not going to make good choices and you're actually going to make the situation worse.
not just for yourself, but those in your organization or those in your family. So, it's a question of really paying attention to what's going on inside of you and getting control of your emotions so that you can.
A) overcome that DIY lobotomy and think clearly, but as you will know, it will, actually have an impact on your levels of immunity and the risk that you're actually putting yourself in.
Alan:Right. So, you know, as we teach people, , that journey in terms of getting control of your response starts by stabilizing your breathing, by learning to breathe in a rhythmic, even fashion, not deep breathing, rhythmic breathing, and then getting control of your emotions. But, is that not pretty tricky when the natural tendency of most human beings is to worry and panic you know particularly if their job is threatened, their future is threatened, their livelihood is threatened.
So, it sounds simple to say, you know, you've got to stay positive and upbeat, but you know, how does one do that in the face of this kind of overwhelming threat.
Peter:It's one of the constant bits of feedback that we get in terms of, well, how did you actually do this? Well, the first thing is you actually got to understand exactly what it is you've got to do.
As you say, breathing rhythmically fundamentally changes a sort of, physiological level and actually, the switches on our, our frontal lobes, so we can think clearly. It fundamentally changes, what's going on in terms of the hormones within our system. And it sounds. Too simple to have, such an impact, but it does, and it's a question of knowing exactly what to do and then practicing it.
You know? I often say, practice develops wisdom. This is the ability to practice something as simple as this. If you can practice it in an environment where there, isn't a threat. Or, the pressure is less then that's going to enable you to actually really apply this when we're in situations like this or when we find ourselves leading an organization in a time of extreme stress.
So, whilst I recognize people sit there and say, well, surely you can't actually control how you feel. Look at what's going on in the world. I'm a victim of. What's actually taking place out there. The reality is, and the sad truth that most of us, you know, don't realize, cause you know, frankly, we've never been told that we can actually control how we feel and if we learn to control how we feel and then we can learn to control how we think, then that's going to improve our response in these, situations.
Alan:Right. And so even in difficult times like now, that's possibly even more important now than ever. Once you've stabilized your breathing, actually proactively try and move yourself to a more positive emotion. Because, in a positive emotional state, you'll reduce your cortisol levels. In a negative emotional state if you're worried or anxious or panicking or fearful.
You'll increase your cortisol. And of course, cortisol impairs your immune system, makes you more susceptible to catch the virus. If you do catch the virus, a high cortisol will probably mean you're immune impaired, so you'll probably have a more severe dose of it. You'll have it for longer, you'll be more contagious.
Your viral load will be greater. So, and again, the distinction, you know, we've got to make clear to people is this isn't positive thinking because positive thinking doesn't cut the mustard. You've got to change how you feel rather than just what you think. So that takes practice right.
Peter:Absolutely. It does take practice and I think, again, that sense that just thinking positive is enough.
What we're talking about is really changing genuinely how you feel, and people are well-practiced at doing this. They just don't realize what they're actually, doing. We often change what we do, or where we are or. Stop doing the things that are actually bothering us. Right? But in a situation like this, it's quite hard to actually stop doing it.
The virus is out that the impact is there the news is giving us a constant message of threat, threat, threat. So sometimes taking yourself out of the environment. Just for five minutes, just to actually find a little more peaceful space in order to focus on your breath. Practice that. Get some clarity, actually change the way that you feel.
Yeah. And as we get to spend more and more time, in isolation with with social distancing, we're going to have to confront actually really how we feel and what's actually going on inside. And if we're going to succeed, during this time, because we're going to be so much more limited to do what we actually do.
So, the practice of actually paying attention to how we are being and how we are feeling is going to become more and more important. But, the, you know, the upside of that is it gives us a great opportunity to practice. It gives us a great opportunity to pay attention and to actually in these tougher situations, practice things like gratitude for what we actually have, which is fundamentally changing how we feel.
Alan:Right. And one of the bits of gratitude is gratitude for the fact that, you know, human beings have an incredibly. brilliant immune system. I speak as if somebody has a PhD in immunology. I mean, it was incredible, how immunologically resilient we really are as human beings. And 99% of people who will get this infection, their immune system will see it off.
And you know, whether you've got the, "L" or the "S" strain, of the virus. And, you know, the "L" being the slightly more severe strain. And I was talking to one of our other coaches, Gestur who's tracking on behalf of the Icelandic government, the, the viral infectivity in Iceland. And, there's no doubt, it's, you know, in pretty much every population, on earth.
And, if, what else can we do in addition to, you know, self-isolating or just keeping our social distance and washing our hands. I think the thing that I haven't heard many people talk about is this emotional regulation. Partly because they don't know about it and they don't realize that it's not just a nice thing to feel better, but it actually has biological consequences that will protect you.
So, I think that's one of the messages we want to get across in this podcast is, well, if you at home. How you feel while you're at home is unbelievably critical. And so, you've got to proactively try and maintain a degree of optimism, even if you have the virus, because it will make a biological difference, right?
Peter:Yeah. I mean, it will literally, reduce the impact that the virus is going to have on you and speed up your recovery. It's also going to make you less infectious. So, it's one of those classic situations where the best way to look after your family and those around you is to actually also pay attention and look after yourself.
Alan:Right.
Peter:Because the less infectious we are, the less impact we're gonna have, on the nation. Or the faster that we actually recover from this, the faster the we as a collective can actually recover and bounce back from the challenges that we are. So, as you say, you take, the, "IT" dimension, if you like, of the hand washing, the working from home. All of those " IT" actions that we have to take. If we actually pay attention to the "I" and do what we need to do in terms of managing our own emotional response, changing the way that we feel, which then has an impact on others and our impact on others, then we actually begin to have a positive impact in the "we" dimension. And then. As, you know, from our work, Alan, it's really when true leadership begins to show up, is when what we do starts to impact and influence those around us.
Alan:Right? And the key piece, as we say, is even if you've got the virus. Manage your emotional state through that as much as possible, because it will make a biological difference.
And eventually your, as you know, you need to be considered as a rough rule of thumb, without a fever for 10 days to consider yourself through the other side of it. And this point about gratitude, we have got an amazing immune system. It will do its job and what we can do to help our family and help, you know, our community is to manage our emotions because that will change our biology. And also, be grateful for the fact that there are lots of people in the world who are looking at how we might get vaccinations against, this virus in the future. How we might get a test. The current test, you know, takes a maximum 24 hours to come back, and it, because it's an amplification of the virus. DNA. but I'm already seeing signs that, there are, tests being developed that might give us a result in 20 minutes, as to whether people are infected or not by looking at a bit of the viral protein rather than the viral DNA.
So we should be grateful that there are many very clever people in the world, you know, really going hell for leather to rapidly upscale the number of ventilator machines because those with preexisting lung disease and the elderly are particularly susceptible to some of the more severe consequences that can emerge.
and so, we should be grateful, not only for our own immunity. but for the fact that the community itself is really, you know, working as one globally, interestingly to try and do what it can and we're going to learn so much coming out the other side of this, you know, whether it takes three months , or more, about ourselves. And often think that people will almost take a degree in virology. The knowledge that's going to exist in society is going to be incredible, right?
So, some of the unintended consequences, you know, that flow from a challenge like this, but maybe we, if we can move on to, we've talked, you know, quite a bit about what we can do for ourselves.
So maybe we should chat a little bit about. you know, some of the "IT" consequences. So obviously, hand washing, working from home where possible and all of those types of things; we follow government advice. But what are some of the issues that, business has have to face into, in relation to making sure that they can survive.
So, what are your thoughts about the priorities for business?
Peter:Well, if you take the "IT" perspective, first off, I mean, one of the first things the business has got to make sure that it's got is cashflow, right? Have we got the cash coming in? And, one of the things that we are facing with this virus is we suddenly add a supply shock in so far as the ability to get hold of goods is suddenly been impacted.
Because so much of what we consume, or use is produced in China or the East. And as a result of the lockdown that we've brought, we've now got a demand shock. So suddenly we're seeing that transactions are halting, and that's having a severe impact on cashflow. So, if you're in an industry, which involves travel, there's been a lot of talk about airlines, obviously cruise lines, the guys who got hit first.
It's really focusing on, have you got a cash to be able to keep the business running? The other pieces is that businesses are going to be looking at is how do I minimize cost? What is it that I've got in the books that I can postpone? What is it that I've got that can be reduced? So, businesses are going to be taking very quick, hard look at the "IT" in terms of cost and cashflow.
But the other thing they’re going to be facing is that the plans that they've had are going to just completely go out of the window. You know, the end of last year, they were undoubtedly setting their strategy in the direction of what the business, where the business was going to go and what they were going to be focusing on.
And, suddenly they're going to find themselves, well, suddenly we've all found ourselves in a situation that, wasn't planned for; wasn't expected. and therefore, those plans are going out. And so, they've got to change their mindset. And that's going from that prediction and control way of operating to the sense and respond mindset. And we've seen that even in the way the government has changed its advice, from yesterday or the end of last week to today. Their suddenly realizing that even the plans that that making in the face of this emergency are, having to be re looked at and changed, you know, in quite fast fashion, well incredibly fast special.
Cause one of the things about this particular situation is the rate at which, it's changing and evolving. And therefore, the old predicting control model simply doesn't work. Do you agree?
Alan:Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, as you know, it's something we've been teaching our clients for some time now, but in this rapidly accelerating world, that predict and control, you know, let's to try and predict the future and put some controls in place and scenario plan for the future.
It becomes less and less helpful. And the sense and respond, which is. Really increasing your sensory capability as a, business sensing what's going on in the wider commercial environment, in the global environment and the macroeconomic and the micro economic. Sensing that and being able to respond in a very agile fashion.
So, we've been big advocates, you and I, for some time that business need to much more embrace that, if that's a phrase, sense and respond rather predict and control. And I think. One of the things that fascinates me, that when we come out the other side of all of this, business, hopefully we'll get some really profound lessons, in, cashflow management.
You know, like so many businesses realizing that, you know, a month or two of reserves just wasn't enough in a. unpredictable world, you probably need a greater level of reserves in the business. And you need some, ability to manage costs in a much more flexible fashion. And that's just, you know, the new business discipline, and also debt.
You know, those companies that, we’re leveraging their position through debt. People might take a very different view moving forward. And so maybe one of the unintended consequences of this whole global pandemic is that business will completely change its view about cash and reserves, about cost, and about debt management as well as this sort of, predict and control moving to sense and respond.
So, do you think that those will be taken up by businesses as some of the profound insights and they'll change what they do as a result?
Peter:I think they definitely should, and the enlightened ones definitely will. the balance between growth and risk has gone far too much to one side.
We've been in a sort of 10-year period where volatility and volatility of returns has been much lower. Then the norm when people have got used to this and they think that things only go one way and therefore they are taking on more and more risk. And typically, that's expressed by taking on more and more debt.
And then suddenly when that volatility returns, the risk that we're taking comes home to peruse. And suddenly if your cashflow is dry, you can't service that, that. And that's creating, huge liquidity challenges. Not just in individual businesses, but also ultimately in the system. But I think the more enlightened businesses will get it and we'll do it, but I think it's also the response of the community and the people that large. So will absolutely, force some of these organizations to pay attention.
So, particularly if you look at the dynamic where we've seen over the last, Four or five years. The practice of taking huge amounts of debt into a corporate in order to be able to buy back shares. And buyers buy back in their shares has, produced greater returns and the exec compensation, is based on the share prize. Now, some of these organizations are already out there asking for, bailouts from the government. I think the people are going to have quite a lot to say about that. And so ultimately, even if the companies don't have the enlightened view that perhaps they need to take a different view of this sort of growth versus risk polarity that. The community and the people at large are going to be bringing that very much to the fore and we'll be changing the way that they look at it.
Alan:Well, I really hope so. And, you know, it's part of, you know, waking up and growing up, to a more mature stance to some of the challenges. I mean, before COVID-19 hit, You know, in the UK we had incredible rain and flooding all through February and in Australia, the fires burning and the climate emergency, and now we've got a health emergency and this is the new reality. So hopefully as you say, the more enlightened businesses will take heed of these warnings and start to think about the way that they run their business. And we can put in the rear-view mirror, you know, this obsession. with profit, and get much more sort of circumspect about, cash management, cost management, debt management, and all those sorts of things. So maybe if we can just move on to cause, that's quite an interesting. sort of perspective on the "IT" dimension and moving into a sense and respond.
What about the "WE" dimension, you know, what do you think are the main sort of impacts of COVID-19 on the way that we relate to each other?
Peter:The first impact for me is it brings how we relate to each other into, you know, really critical view. And you can see this sort of. Polarizing ways of how, at different levels across the globe, we are responding.
So, at one level we're closing borders, right? So, we're distancing ourselves from each other and they're doing that for very, very sound reasons. The virus is forcing us to actually distance ourselves from each other, as individuals, you know, you and I, are working in different places. working from home or not spending as much time together. The government are encouraging people to spend less time together. So, there's this direct force, which is actually pushing us apart. And with that force coming in, it's actually getting people to actually recognize that they need to reach out more.
And so, the communication that, organizations have got to be giving out to their people. That's got to actually improve because it's much harder to communicate it's got to get faster. It's got to be more nimble by to that sense and respond point, but we need to get much, much better at actually listening.
To each other and actually working out how we can use digital technology so that we can actually connect properly. We can actually pay attention to each other. We can use that time more effectively. But in terms of communication, this is actually an opportunity for communication too, improve. And I think also people are realizing there's not just a sort of "IT" task dimension to this communication.
They're suddenly realizing that the water cooler chat, the chat over a coffee, the just saying "hi" as they walk into the office is important. So actually, how they relate to each other. So, people are starting to have informal online, gatherings. You know, to try and actually build, that "WE" community that they have within the organization.
And, you know, families who are distant apart from each other, you know, if they've got the technology available, are now going to be reaching out and using technology much, much more to have those interactions with each other. But, you know, from a medical point of view, there's an important point about relationships.
Al if you want to talk to that?
Alan:Yeah. I mean, we're social animals. So, we need human contact, which is why, you know, many people, particularly the extroverts, out there, will find, isolation that's been recommended, quite tough. and, we need each other; health requires us to connect with each other.
So, we're going to have to get much better at digitally connecting because it has a biological consequence. So, when we connect in a meaningful fashion, it increases our DHEA levels, which is the body's antidote to cortisol and increased DHEA, improves our immunity. So, there's a real health and medical consequence of connecting effectively.
So many businesses as people work from home. Rather than taking this sort of, shutdown, everything's a threat. So, we'll just retreat and we'll just, go into a bunker mentality. We've got to learn to digitally reach out and carry on through the crisis, working digitally and get really good at working digitally.
And if we do, one of the unintended consequences here is, actually we might speed up, and. As human beings, we need to speed up because the world is speeding up. So, we've got to get faster, more effective, more connected. And so ironically, one of the consequences when we get the other side of this virus is, we may all become, as you suggest, more digitally savvy, but more effective at connecting, at listening and making, biologically healthy.
Connections with each other, in a virtual space. so maybe we can move on to, you and I have talked before about the sort of five waves of this kind of threat. You know, and the first one being very much where we are at the moment, they're sort of medical, immunological, psychological wave. And we're beginning to see wave two, certainly Italy has been, affected by wave two, which is where there's a real overwhelming healthcare consequence. So, you know, we haven't quite got there yet in the UK at this point. but how do you see that in terms of the healthcare overwhelm?
Peter:Well, one of the, as you say, one of the critical risks here is just with the speed of transmission. And the scale of this, you know what is essentially a wicked problem that is the virus is the sheer volume of people that may end up being effected. And in terms of the capacity of the health care system, it's simply not designed to be able to cope with this.
So, the guys in the health care service are doing their level best to fundamentally adapt a system to be able to cope with a pandemic on this scale. And that's a huge, huge challenge, which, you know, they're dedicated to trying to find a way, but we've got to be prepared and understand that,if we don't play our part in the "I", in the "WE" that's going to have a systemic impact on the overwhelm of , the healthcare system, which then obviously has dire consequences over and above that in terms of those other people who cannot get the treatment , that they need. So-
Alan:So while we're in gratitude for people upscaling the supply of ventilators, and we've heard in many countries, that's a major area of focus, for those people who end up with pneumonia or acute respiratory distress syndrome, which is the primary problem and why you need ventilation.
As you say, our part is to maintain upbeat positivity, control our emotional response. Continue to connect in a meaningful fashion digitally with each other to reduce the risk that we're personally going to need that kind of, medical. So rather than sitting there, you know, hoping somebody else is going to sort out that risk of medical overwhelm, we can do something concrete ourselves to reduce the likelihood that any society faces medical overwhelm.
Is that what you're saying?
Peter:Yeah, absolutely. And I think, you know, one of the things I've, heard often, is people saying, well, there's nothing I can do about it. This is just going to happen. And you know, I, I totally disagree with that for the reasons we've been talking in the "I" and the "WE", there is definitely something that we can do if we manage how we respond.
If we think clearly, if we behave and act appropriately, then we are going to be able to help keep that. Curve down below the level of the capacity of the health care system and actually in that help our fellow man and woman. ensure that those healthcare facilities are going to be available for those that really need them.
Alan:Right, and likewise, there's much we can do about the economic consequences. So, if, the natural human response when faced with a threat is fight, flight, or play dead. and if we resist the temptation to go and play dead and bunker down and, pull up the Drawbridge, that is important for maintaining economic, flow, right?
Cause if everybody just retreats, and, refuses to engage with each other. Then the economic consequences, which is really the third wave of impact. So, the first wave is the sort of direct medical, immunological, psychological, the second wave is the health overwhelm. And the third wave is the sort of economic impact.
But again, if we maintain our meaningful connection and positivity, we can, reduce the economic impact. Don't you think?
Peter:Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's, as you say, when the threat is deemed to be as severe as it is, you know, that drives us into that sort of, faint response where we literally get sort of "the deer in the headlights", we don't know what to do.
So therefore, we will, we will do nothing. And it's up to the leaders of the organization and all the people in the organization to reimagine. How is it they can deliver the services and the goods that they provide, in different ways? What can be done differently?
How do you actually, allow this situation to transform your organization and your services so that we can keep things going? Because ultimately, we don't know how long this is going to take, but to keep the economy running is. Is insignificant and it's significant, not just in terms of making money.
I'm not talking about just making money, but that can have a huge impact on the health and wellbeing of people, in and of itself. The additional stress of losing your job or losing your income or potentially losing something else is going to have, you know, this is why it's sort of wave three is the next order of impact that's actually going to take place on the population.
And I think this is why we're going to see governments and we are beginning to see governments around the world taking really, really strong action in relation to the economy because this is such a critical piece to keep going and keep the supply chains working.
Alan:Right? And that takes us into wave four, you know, true of all wicked problems is.
You know, every wicked problem is a symptom of another wicked problems. The wicked problem of this sort of health challenge, contributes to the wicked problem of the economy, which then controverts back to the problem of health, right? So, these things are interdependent on each other.
And so, do you imagine that as we come out, some of the sort of systemic learnings, are going to be, grasped by humanity?
How does the system change as a result when we start to get past and we will get past it? But hopefully, do you think some of the way that we see ourselves and see our businesses and see society and our communities itself, there'll be some systemic changes to all of that?
Peter:Yeah. My, deep rooted optimism and hope is as we go through this, this severe challenge is that it will profoundly change how we approach so many aspects of our, lives.
And that's whether, how we feel about, ourselves and how we manage ourselves, how we relate to each other. That will have a profound impact in terms of the political system. That will have a profound impact in terms of practicality, how we treat and see and understand the health care system. I think it will have a profound impact on the economy and the financial markets, and therefore there's going to be a, huge call and cause for those things to be transformed because the context in which we are going to be operating in the future is going to be very different. And the scale of this challenge means that people are going to view things very differently.
We're going to face challenges that we’ve not imagined we would ever have to face. And therefore, new solutions will have to be found. Different approaches will have to be found. And that will have fundamental impact on pretty much all of the systems in which we operate. you know, also, as those systems change, we'll start to see unintended consequences. Some of those will be, unfortunate. Some of those solutions we won't necessarily work longer term, but some of the unintended consequences may actually work out to be better.
Already we're seeing the environment being impacted by the lack of economic activity.
You know, levels of pollution around towns and cities is falling dramatically. And that gives us a profound lesson that actually what we do does fundamentally make a difference. And that's been one of the arguments against tackling climate change is, "we can't make a difference". So, one of the unintended consequences in the wider potential systemic changes will be how people actually perceive these issues?
Alan:Right? And so that's really the wave five the unintended consequences. So just to recap. The first wave as you and I were talking about with the medical immunological psychological dimensions to COVID-19.
Wave two the healthcare, overwhelmed risk.
Affecting Wave three, the economic, position of communities and nation States, and then some of the systemic, threats and opportunities.
And then in Wave four and Wave five, the unintended consequences. So, I think as people maybe listen to this and see that COVID is a real threat to humanity.
Or is it an opportunity? Well, I think you and I probably align on the fact that it's both it's a threat and an opportunity. And so, we will get through it. We will come out the other side and hopefully if we heed the lessons, it's there to teach us.
All of us will be a great deal better for it.
Would that be your view, Peter?
Peter:Yeah, I do. My heart goes out to everybody who's, dealing with the suffering, the loss and the challenge that this takes. But I do have a sort of deep-rooted optimism, and the hope that. We will get through this and we will end up in a much better place than we are now.
Alan:Right, so hopefully some of those thoughts have been helpful. do reach out to us, email us, connect to us via the website "CompleteCuriosity" or "complete-coherence.com" subscribe to the podcast. We're laying on a free webinar, next week, which we'll post details about.
And above all, if we can encourage you, despite how challenging this feel is it's biologically important to stay upbeat and positive as much as possible and make meaningful connections and continue working as much as possible in the digital space. So, we just wish all of you out there, well. And we'll certainly be doing our part to try and help, the whole of, the community stay positive.
So, thanks for your time, Peter. Really great talking to you as ever.
Peter:Thanks Alan.